Philzone.com - Mickey Hart Interview

Welcome to Philzone.com Mickey! Looks like you've had a fantastic busy year. What's the impetus for getting this band, Rhythm Devils, together?

Well it started innocently enough. Bill and I were asked to host the Jammys and we thought that while we were in New York, we might as well play. Kimock was going to be there. Mike Gordon was going to be there. Angelique Kidjo, Baba Mal and Charlie Musslewhite were all going to be there. So we called all the troops together and we played a little club. It was very successful. The kids loved it. Then we played the Jammys. They loved it. So Bill and I just looked at each other and said, "Do you want to do it again?" "Yeah, let's do it!" So we went on a 4-day run about a month and a half ago. That went even better and then we decided to do this tour. That was the genesis of it all.

How's it being back with your old pal Billy?

We never left. We're always partners. We had a couple years not playing together but we always see each other and hang out. We're social. We're best of friends. But yeah it's really good to play again.

At first when I heard the name "Rhythm Devils", I thought maybe you guys would be doing a little bit of the "Drums" segment from the Grateful Dead format.

Yeah, every night we do a bit of drums, but this isn't *that* Rhythm Devils. Bill and I are the Rhythm Devils; we're expanding now into the song form or some resemblance of it. Hunter's written us eleven songs now. We're playing these marvelous tunes with Hunter's words. That's really the bedrock of the repertoire.

That's really great to hear. It seems as if you've had quite a relationship with Hunter working on some other projects. What's that relationship like with you and Hunter when you approach song writing?

Well it's taken a long time to really get it as smooth as it is now. That's the thing with Hunter. It's an ongoing process and it's always a work in progress. Hunter is at his peak, I think, now. I usually give him the tunes or some skeletal version of them and he sends me back the words. Then we tweak them. We cut and paste a little bit, if I need a little bit of this, a little bit of that. We both work by email.

The digital age...

Yeah, the "digital age", that's how we're working now. It works great. We have a site where he goes and he hears what I'm doing. He stays current on it. I hear what he's doing and he sends me, sometimes daily, updates on the words and so forth. Every morning I can't wait to get up and look on the computer and see what Hunter has dreamed up. Hunter has pulled himself away and isolated himself for this project.

To focus on writing?

Yes, to focus on writing. That really is meaningful. He's alone in his cabin, his home. He says this is part of his daily routine now - writing for the Rhythm Devils. It's different than just a casual writing experience. Everyday he goes out and kayaks, and works out and writes these tunes. He works on them and thinks about them. When you isolate yourself you can really, really focus. That's how we used to do it.

We lived together and Hunter would be there at rehearsals and as we were coming up with stuff he would come up with stuff. So it's the same kind of spirit. But he is writing a little bit differently now; not so much in the verse/chorus normal song form. This band is not quite like that.

I would imagine this has a lot to do with the percussion? Is it based on rhythms of the percussion?

It's very percussive and very rhythmic. Yeah, his writing is rhythmic because he follows the rhythm really carefully. What I give him kind of leads him into a certain rhythmic space and it works really well for this band.

Was the first writing project you had with Hunter for your band Mystery Box?

Mystery Box was the year that Jerry died in '95. Jerry died right in the middle of that one.

You had started that while he was still alive?

Yeah, I had already started. Actually that was what gave me some kind of solace during my grief. I just went right deep back into the studio and finished Mystery Box and stayed with it.

What was that like? There was a period of time after Jerry's passing when the band members stayed silent for a little bit, but in '96 you exploded back onto the scene with Mystery Box.

Music is the salvation for me. It's everything. Without the music it would be hard to make it through in one piece. I thought a lot about Jerry. Of course he was in my heart, in my mind, in my ear. I know that he would want me to stay with the music and not to sit and mope around. So that's what I did. It really served me well. The music came through as always. When you put your heart and soul into it it's a "balm". B - A - L - M. (laughs)

Yes, healing.

It greases the skids. It was very painful, very sad for me.

Did you channel it into Mystery Box?

Oh absolutely. Of course. I tried to focus as hard as I can on music because that's the only way I could understand this whole thing. The Grateful Dead was busted apart. It was ripped away from us at that time. Then we decided to reform again and play the music. We realized this is not the end of this.

Further Fest followed shortly after?

Yeah, we did the Further Fest and it was a very joyful experience. That first one was really very joyful, getting together with Bob again kicking it around. Phil came into the fold and Billy came back. We had some really good shows.

This year, 2006, had some milestones with the transfer of the vault over to Rhino. How did you feel about that? The closing of one chapter...

It's really a wonderful thing because we weren't prepared to do the business anymore. We didn't' really want to do it. It was kind of an albatross around our neck. We figured if we got the business out of the way we could become friends again.

Grateful Dead was really built around personal relationships. The love and trust for each other. We were having disagreements every which way with the business. That was very obvious. So we figured we could jettison the business and give it to somebody who will care for it really right. None of us wanted to go to Board meetings at all.

You're not a committee, you're a band.

And really run a major corporation. We didn't want it to go to seed. The smartest thing to do was to give it to somebody responsible. In this case it was Warner Brothers. I went to see them. I actually went down there and talked to them. These guys were the fans. They were our fans. Now they run the company. They really understood who the Grateful Dead was. I knew they wouldn't ruin it. I knew they wouldn't trash it. As long as we kept creative control over it.

That's definitely a part of the deal?

Of course. Without that - there would be no deal. We wouldn't give our life's work away. We just leased it to them. We didn't sell it. They're just running it and we're advising them. They ask us if we want to do this and we say, "Yes" or say "No". It's a working relationship with the hope we could come back together again as friends and maybe some day play. I mean, that's my hope.

Some other milestones this year included the sad passing of key family members: Hamza El Din, Ramrod, Vince.

Yeah it wasn't the best of years as far as that goes. Like Ramrod said, "Scatter the ashes and turn the page". That's what he said. He said that to me and Bob. That's what we did. That's what we're doing. He had it right. So we keep on going. There's a need for this kind of spirit. I always believed that's what the Grateful Dead was all about. More like a Spirit. It wasn't so much a band. It was a band of course, but it was the energy that created and allowed for this community to gather and rejoice in that kind of freedom.

Absolutely. I think a lot of people feel that now more then ever that Spirit is necessary.

You've been known for your social activism and getting involved with politics. What are your thoughts on where this world is headed, the state of affairs right now, and the role of music to help shape the situation we have?

I think it's really important for people to get together in peace and talk about their issues whether they're on the right or the left or in the center or wherever it is. Aggression and hate; these are bad rhythms. They will only lead to worse rhythms. They can't lead to good rhythms. You can't kill all the people you disagree with. You have to mediate something. Music is a great way to mediate our situation. It's very rare that you can hate somebody after you play music with them, or to them, or share a musical experience. There's something about the vibratory nature of music that makes people resonate with each other.

They'll still have their fears and their hopes will still be there, their dreams. All those consequences will be there but somehow in the presence of music you can kind of understand and have a little more compassion for someone's problems. Not only your own, but the other people out there.

I've always thought that; I know it might be a Utopian thought, but if the United Nations and Security Council played drums together and everybody was in rhythm at least for a common good they might find that they're not so different. Maybe that feeling would permeate and have some kind of resolution with some of these very difficult issues. The world is on fire. It's burning all over the place. We're losing our civil liberties. The planet is in danger. People are building weapons to kill each other. It's very serious business here. The administration is out of control. Mr. Bush, in my estimation, is not really a CEO. He's not a Chief Executive. He can't be for our country. I mean he might be a nice hang, but I don't really think that he's the best person for the job. Let's put it that way. Matter of fact, it's got to change. We're at the end of the rope here. We're at the end of the chain.

I'll throw this one out there to you: Pontificate on the Cosmos... There's been a school of thought that thinks that the '60's were a great activation period, and now we're coming on the year 2012. There's talk of the Mayan Calendar coming to an end point. There have been some other psychedelic folks out there, i.e. Terence McKenna...

Sure I've heard all those theories. They're all theories. They might be right and they might not be right.

...Theories about consciousness happening, and the Earth getting to a point...

But you've got to do something now. Not by 2012. You got to do it now. I spoke to Al Gore a couple months ago. He's just wondering, "Why isn't the administration doing it now?" You can't wait until the children have it. We got to do it now or we won't have anything to do."

It's become that kind of urgent situation. I believe that global warming is one of the most serious issues we're facing. If we don't have a planet, we can't even kill each other or make nice or whatever (laughs). That's a serious problem. It's all serious.

It's all serious.

But you got to have the love. You got to have the determination to make it right. You got to go out and vote. You got to make a difference. You got to change it. People can not have apathy. There was a guy named Scoop Misker. He's a San Francisco guy, a funny guy. He says, "If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own". That's really what it's about. You got to make some news of your own.

That's why Bill and I are out here. We're trying to make a better world in our way. We're rhythmists. And we know that we're tied into the rhythmic origin of the universe. That's where we came from and that's what we're resonating with. We know, as brothers of the groove, that we have a very powerful message. We're bringing it to as many people who will listen. That's how we're screaming. Hey man, this is not just about entertainment. Getting in the "trance" you find your priorities change. It's like what Iliad would call "Hierophant". There's a moment where your priorities cross a line. You move into the, some people call it the, "Sacred Dimension" or "the Zone" or some place of meaning, of great personal meaning.

When you have the groove, you have people around you that are like-minded. It becomes very powerful when you have Group Mind. We've been getting Group Mind and that's really what it's all about. It's not about the music. It's not even about drums or drumming. It's about Group Mind. It's about that feeling that you get when you play together and what you do with that energy after that music stops. It's not about a concert. It's about that energy. That power you raise and how that manifests in your world and other people's world and what you do with it or else it's just a gig. The Grateful Dead was never meant for that and we kind of got used to that. Bill and I certainly had and I know Phil and Bob share that sentiment.

Did you feel that way regarding the Dead during the '90's? Some of the other band members talked about how difficult it was towards the end. That it was locked into some very rigid parameters.

Yeah, well as Jerry was fading the music was fading and all of our spirits were going down because watching your best friend die in front of you night after night slowly is not a pretty sight. There was nothing we could do to save him. It was like a death wish for him. He didn't want to die but he would eat those burgers and drink that milkshake and laugh and smile. I wouldn't smile back. It was not funny. To him, he was making light out of a very serious situation. I rode in the van with him every day. Me and him were the early ones. It was like our private time together. We would talk about stuff that matters sometimes. He kind of felt helpless at the end. He was overwhelmed by the situation: his failing health and his drug problems. He got swamped by it. He just wouldn't listen to his brothers. Of course it saddened all of us to no end. It made the music suffer with nothing we could do to save it.

How about when you and Bill had the stage during Drums?

I always thought that was very uplifting, not always, but when we were on, it was very uplifting. You know the Grateful Dead was bigger than us, so it wasn't just like Drums. We were trying to channel something. We were trying to find the rhythm of the day - the feeling of the day and create something of great beauty that was an original thing. It wasn't like the songs. We never really talked about it. We never composed.

Every night, you'd just take it off the top?

That was the thing we always agreed from the beginning that we'd never work this out. Because then it won't be real. It would be some head-trip. So the songs started becoming a head-trip. Even our jams became a head-trip. We knew what we were jamming and that was wrong. We shouldn't know. You shouldn't be aware of the jam. You should just go. It should take you. It should play you. This band has that kind of spirit now.

Every new band has that. It's not something that's totally unique to this band. But, when bands are new, they're enthused. We got new material. We got fresh meat. The players are fresh. We don't have any kind of history together - bad or good. They're mostly strangers to us. Not total strangers. But when you know somebody forty years, or thirty years, or whatever, versus someone you've just played a dozen gigs with - remember we played thousands of gigs! That also bonds you. I'll always love, support, and be the best friends of Bob, Bill, and Phil no matter what they think of me. Whatever happens, we're tied at the heart. There's no separating us when it comes right down to it. We might not ever play together. I wish we would. That still won't stand in the way of the love.

Phil was my best friend. When I joined the Grateful Dead we were the closest. We worked on the Other One countless hours. Sitting on the floor and writing stuff out. Talking about fours over fives over threes. Doing stuff that we had both never done before or I don't think anybody has ever done. We felt very close. We still email. Whenever we see each other it's always a happy experience. I always love to see his smile. I just hope some day we can get together and play again.

Well you've got a great band now. The fans are all looking forward to what the Rhythm Devils has to offer.

Yeah, it's a work in progress that's for sure.

You can develop that sound and peak it off at Vegoose. Any other new projects beyond the Rhythm Devils?

Planet Drum! We just finished a beautiful Planet Drum tour.

Was it an anniversary?
Yeah. 15 years. So Zakir Hussain and Sikiru, (who are in this band) and Giovanni Hidalgo and myself. We soared. It was transcendent. We felt that we were in the right place at the right time, doing exactly what we wanted to do. The groove was right. We owned it.

Airto [Moreira] joined you too?

Airto joined us for a couple of shows! Hopefully we'll do this thing again. We're planning to do it again just like the Rhythm Devils. This is really full of energy and passion and love. So when you got those things, and you got Bob Hunter, well you know...

Something special!

That's the ball game man! Hunter is just writing out of his head. Glorious words full of the spirit and meaning of what I'd like to be about.

Thank you Mickey.

You're welcome.

Thank you for sharing with the Philzone. We all thank you and really appreciate the time.

Thanks for asking. I appreciate it.

Best of luck. We're look forward to the show tonight!

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