 Awaken - Arise! with The Zen Tricksters Rob Barraco & Jeff Mattson Part 3 |
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Rob: I just did what I do. Jeff:
I think Rob was a big help because he knows a lot of the Grateful
Dead material. Rob: I’ll tell you what was really weird, the other night, a lot of the harmonies I do in this band I had to change my part to do it with Phil. It fucked me up the other night. We were doing Uncle John’s Band and I couldn’t remember which part to do it in (laughter). Jeff: Yeah, and some of it was in different keys too. PZ: Did you feel any pressure to deliver some of leads that Kimock would do? Rob: I just did what I do. I didn’t consciously think that I had to fill any role except to just do what I do. Jeff: I think that having seen these shows it seems very clear to me that Rob and John Molo knew the material the best and were the solid rock. Not to take anything away from Warren or Derek - they both played great, but Rob and John carried the structure… Rob: Yes, and that allowed the other guys to skate over the top of the music and bring it all together and make it sound cool. PZ:
I saw a lot of interaction between you and Phil especially. He
seemed to really enjoy what you were playing...
Rob: Phil, anything that I’d play he’d just be all over it. I mean he’d just be right there and visa versa. He would do something and I’d be right on it. A lot of really cool rhythmic things happened where the rhythms got converted from one thing into - all of a sudden you’re playing the blues… Jeff: Like you’re playing a shuffle… Rob: …And all of a sudden we're back into some weird jazz groove and they would happen so naturally. Jeff: He knows just exactly where the beat is all the time and he can dance all over it and still know where it is. Rob: And you know what, he never does it the same way twice. So you can't ever get comfortable thinking, "Okay, this is what he's gonna do" because he’ll always fuck you up and play it some other way or play some other note. Like, "Okay, he’s gonna come down crashing down on the one with the note of the chord" and he wouldn’t even play it and he’d play some other weird note. Jeff: That’s it - that’s the beauty of Phil Lesh, or part of it - and you hear it and you’re go, "Wow! I never would’ve thought of it like that – what a brilliant idea." Rob: I always use to think of him as a stuttering bass player because of the way he plays - not in a bad way – just the way he would fall before and after the beat it always seemed like a stutter to me and it was so perfect. PZ:
What was it like playing with some of the other guys?
Jeff: And he hears well too (laughter). Sorry Bobby. Rob: Somebody made the statement “Man, there’s a lot of big ears on the stage” and Phil started laughing and goes “That should be the picture we get if we ever do a record - all of us normal with these huge ears.” (laughs) Jeff: Like In the Dark, instead of all of the eyes you could have all ears. (laughter) Rob: Yeah, so Warren and I really got it on a lot. I had a lot of connection with him rhythmically - especially when Derek was soloing - I think there was a conscious effort to try to get a rhythmic thing going so we got it on a lot like that. Jorma and I got some really cool stuff going on the last two nights that was really cool. Jeff:
It’s interesting with the two guitars too because it’s not like
the roles of like the Dead were with a rhythm guitarist PZ: Did you ever feel like you wanted to take off on a solo but held back? Jeff: Well yeah, sure. I’m used to playing in a four piece band where there is this unlimited space. Rob: Yes, major adjustments had to be made. Coming from a four piece band with an extra player, or two extra players when Strickland was playing, so you have to pick and choose you’re spaces carefully. PZ:
Yeah, then at Barton there were 3 guitarists... PZ:
What was it like behind the scenes? Jeff: Oh everybody was really nice. Rob: The Warfield shows were really different because Phil had his dressing room where Jill and he could just go back to and hang out with just a couple of people. But everybody else was hanging out…. Jeff: Yeah, and we would sit around just going over vocals and stuff. It’s not like Phil was ever inaccessible. Rob:
Yeah, like Klyph [The Zen Tricksters bassist] was there…and I
wanted Phil and Klyph to meet. My whole life, I’ve always wanted
- I’ve needed to take a picture of Klyph and Phil. (points and
laughs with Klyph) So I did…I got a really great picture of Phil
and Klyph. (laughter). At the shows I just did we had one dressing
room, so it was all of us hanging out all of the time which was
really cool. Rob: Yeah one night when we played in New Haven, all of his nieces were there, and Cutler’s niece was there, so there were like seven kids backstage and it was funny. They were all playing with Derek. They all loved Derek. It was funny, he was sitting there playing cards with them – it’s funny because Derek’s so young so I guess he’s not so far removed as we all are (laughter) You know, I have kids myself…so that kind of thing is interesting to watch. It was fun. (Laughs) PZ: What was it like going around from venue to venue? Rob:
There were three buses: There was a crew bus, Phil and his family
and the Road Manager had a bus, and we were with various assistants
and Phil’s sons tutor stayed with us for a week. Various girlfriends/wives
came and went on the tour. It was a good feeling – a real family
affair so there was a lot of partying and just a whole lot of
fun and joking going on. Phil has a great sense of humor you know.
PZ: When the Fall tour was winding down, how did you feel? Rob: Oh I was bummed. I wanted at least another week of shows. It was interesting after two shows, things started really happening. Derek started getting really comfortable, so I thought that by the end of his time things were really starting to happen - so I would’ve liked another week of that. When Jorma stepped in, Jorma played more of a rhythm guitar than anything else, so Warren was really able to speak up. So it happened a lot quicker that way. Jorma is just such a nice guy – he’s so mellow. That was a really big thrill too - just another one of my heroes. And a couple of times Jorma played some stuff that sent the hairs on the back of my neck standing on end - he’d just do this (singing high guitar lick) it’s like WHEW! That’s the shit!
Jeff:
Yeah well, when we came back from the shows at the Warfield we
did a few shows and we immediately adopted the approach of...
PZ:
Did your song selection change any? Rob: Well no, we have a pretty huge repertoire so we just cycled through the stuff. Jeff:
(laughs) Well if you’re asking if we did “Jump,” no we didn’t.
(explosive laughter) Jeff:
Oh are you talking about the conversation with Phil at Worcester?
Rob: Cutler was out at the soundboard and I went “Dun!dun!dun! (singing the first couple of notes to Jump) (explosive laughter) and I stopped and he cracked up (laughs). He said “You just gotta warn me when you use that sound because it’s too fuckin' loud!” (laughs) PZ: Were there any off the wall songs that you rehearsed that you were possibly going to do with Phil? Jeff:
We fooled around with John Coltrane’s Giant Steps. Jeff: Yes, the changes go by really quick... Rob: Really quick and they’re odd. They’re not your normal changes… Jeff:
Yeah, changing keys every two beats... Jeff: Well Rob is more than I am. Rob: I am. That’s something I used to do for a really long time. That’s what I really love to do. Jeff: I use to play a jazz guitar for a while. One of the things that attracted me to the Grateful Dead is that they were playing rock with a jazz concept. Rob: That’s right, that’s exactly what it was. Jeff: But as far as really playing straight-up jazz I haven’t really spent enough time doing it but Rob has. Rob:
I’ve played in a few different configurations within the last
20 years. At one point I thought my ideal gig would’ve been to
get one of these cocktail piano gigs in some smoky bar in the
city playing standards and stuff, but now, nah.
PZ: There’s definitely a few bars there… Rob: Did you really? Were you really doing that? Jeff: I was playing a jam and I said, "Wow this is Lonely Avenue" (sings a few expressive bars) (laughter) but then I thought I’m not really gonna go into it. Rob: It’s fun to tease stuff in the middle of songs…
PZ: Then there was a bit of Jingo... Jeff: Yeah, that was another thing that just happened. I just heard the bass line that Phil was playing at the time and thought, "Oh that sounds like he’s playing Jingo Ba" and so I just started playing it… Rob: Oh yeah! And we kinda just all went into it. Jeff: Yeah, we went into it and just did that riff to it. That was fun because it was so spontaneous. Rob:
Yeah that was fun because I was on the organ and I said, "Yeah
let me do that Santana thing. Yeah!"
Jeff: I think the first one I did was Bertha. PZ:
And then what was the first one that you played together? Do you
remember? Jeff: 20 years of gigs... Rob: Um, shit what was it…now I’ve gotta remember… Jeff: (starts singing theme to Jeopardy; explosive laughter) Rob: Ahhhhnt (buzzer noise) Thank you for playing Mr. Barraco. Jeff: Well we played some kind of jam or something. Was it Playing In The Band? Rob: Well we did, but no it wasn’t that. Jeff: Scarlet Begonias? Rob: Scarlet Begonias. Yeah, that’s it. And I remember because the keyboard player was using a sample piano and it was an octave lower than I was use to playing so I didn’t have that upper register and it was really fucking annoying. I remember thinking, "I can’t believe he wants me to play this." PZ: Is there any Dead tune that you have yet to play that you'd like to do someday? Jeff: Well yeah! There’s a couple that we use to play that we haven’t played in a long time that need to come back. Rob: I have one and it’s on me because I have to learn to sing it well and that’s Lazy Lightning. We actually worked on that a bit and if I ever learn how to sing it we’ll do it. Jeff: Yeah we were talking about doing Born Cross-Eyed. Rob: Oh yeah that’d be cool and I would love to do… Jeff: Blues for Allah Rob: Yeah, Blues for Allah and also Stronger Than Dirt. Jeff: Oh yeah, that’d be a great one to do. That’d be a great one to do with Phil. Rob: Yeah, I was actually thinking if I ever get to do that Phil thing again I was gonna suggest that to him to do at some point. Jeff: It’s actually one of the more difficult Grateful Dead songs to do. Rob: But we were able to do the odd time stuff, the odd key stuff as well, and Molo is really good at that so we’d probably be able to do it. There’s no vocal to worry about. Jeff: Well there’s actually a lot of changes in there but... Rob: It’s just one of those things where you just have to sit down and learn it. Jeff: Well let me tell you, over the years, we've played some of the more obscure ones. One night we did Rosemary, and What’s Become of the Baby? (laughter) Rob: Yeah we did that at Wetlands one night with John Dwork reciting the lyrics (starts to voice lyrics – lots of laughter) PZ: You guys have the big New Year’s show coming up with String Cheese Incident... Jeff: Yeah, this is our 5th year in Portland for New Year’s. We’re taking a little more of a backseat on this one though but it should be a great, great show. Rob: It’s in a much bigger venue. We’ve been doing it the last couple of years in the Crystal Ballroom and the Crystal Ballroom is just such a magical place. Jeff: Yeah. The dance floor is strung on springs and ball bearings and all so it’s really cool. Rob: Yeah and they can adjust the tension and stuff. PZ: I heard that the balcony at the Warfield was kinda like that when you guys played there. (Lots of laughter) Rob:
Phil said that his favorite venues were Madison Square Garden
and Red rocks. But he said that at Madison Square Garden when
the crowd starts jumping that the whole stage actually moves and
he really got off on that a lot. Rob: I’d like to say, "Hi Mom!" Jeff: Yes and come see The Zen Tricksters!! Whenever possible - twice in the same night when possible (laughs) and um, check out our new CD. Phil liked it! (explosive laughter!) PZ: Well thanks again. That was excellent. Rob and Jeff: Our pleasure. Don't
miss The Zen Tricksters! This
interview or any photos included may not be reprinted anywhere
in |
PZ:
Do you feel your styles of playing with The Zen Tricksters have
changed from your experience?
Rob:
Yeah that was something Phil really wants to do at
some point. It’s a really difficult song to do. I venture to say
that I’ve only heard a couple of people cover it and sound great.
Obviously Coltrane, but John McLaughlin’s done a great job with
that song. I use to play with a guitarist who was really well-versed
with Coltrane and he did a great job with it. But most people
I’ve ever heard doing that song have just fumbled through it because
it’s just too difficult to improvise. It’s not difficult to play
the tune itself. The thing is, it's difficult to improvise over
it. It’s just very difficult.
Rob:
The first Dead tune that I ever heard anybody play is -
(points to Klyph) when I was 15, Klyph and I were friends back
then and Klyph was sitting in my friend's den and started playing
Casey Jones on the guitar and I said, "What the hell is that?"
and he said, "Well, it’s the Grateful Dead." I remember
saying, "Wow I never heard of them." Then I quickly
learned of them. (Laughs) The first Dead tune I ever played was
probably Casey Jones or Uncle John’s Band.
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